This podcast reveals why Curtis Johnson, one of the top 50 real estate agents in the United States decided to make a move to EXP realty. Curtis talks about his journey and the hurdles on the way, the EXP model, and how he is enjoying than ever before. He forecasts the growth of EXP realty and reveals some staggering numbers.
Click here to listen to the podcast. Read the complete transcript below.
Mike: This is the agent revolution podcast the next evolution of the real estate industry.
Let’s get started.
What’s up? I’m Mike wall proud EXP agent, Owner and team leader. Your host of The Agent Revolution podcast for the next 30 minutes. I’ve got an absolutely crazy episode today. I’m sitting down with real estate legend Curtis Johnson. Curtis runs one of the top 50 real estate teams in the country according to The Wall Street Journal. This dude is everywhere and he’s giving us the skinny on his transition to EXP.
So let’s get this thing started.
Curtis Johnson, the freaking godfather. Dude it is an honor to be sitting down and chatting with you today. So I just wanted to talk to you as I was hoping that you would share your personal and unique journey from where you were to where we are both now which is EXP realty. So first of all, welcome to the show.
Curtis: It is an honor for me to be with you. It’s good I’m excited.
Mike: Appreciate that brother. How long have you been in real estate now because you were Under 30 guy right?
Curtis: I think I got it when I was 29. But yeah. So I’ve been in low and a couple months it’ll be 20 years exactly since I got my license and I started a team after about a year. My first year I sold 10 houses and was beating my head against a wall trying to figure out, scrambling work and every hour possible. As I started to go through, I knew nobody could be working harder than I was. I also knew that I made 24,000 dollars that first year. I knew everybody was making more than I was and there were just things they didn’t know. I just went out and hired the best coaches and traveled all over North America trying to learn from the best people out there and then putting systems in place to start a team that next year and I went over 100 units and we’ve been over a million GCI, several million GCI for like 16 years in a row or something like that but just trying to surround ourselves with great people like yourself.
Mike: That’s phenomenal. Let me ask you this, how did you even get into real estate? Well what did you do before and how was the transition process.
Curtis: I did a lot of stuff I think. I realized that I’m unemployable. I started working when I was really young. I really had my first real job when I was 11. I had to kind of fake my I.D to be able to qualify because you had to be 12 to be a paper boy. But my step dad worked for the paper. So I started working hard when I was young I just always been working in and doing stuff. I got a real estate when I was 26 and started hustling. I was going to going to school taking a full load. I was working at a financial planning software company giving advice to accountants and financial planners. I realized they didn’t know what they were dealing if they were getting advice from a young punk like myself in helping them try and help their clients out. At the same point I was working a third job. My wife and I were newly married. My wife is an accountant and she was an accountant at a dairy who they had a bunch of land and then they ended up getting a cemetery and then they built a funeral home. They needed somebody with an insurance license. To sell insurance for this stuff and I happened to have one because I was at the financial planning company. I started work in a little bit there and ended up starting a cell Death if you will. I sold funeral plans and actually just finding a way to build, to help people so that in their time in need they didn’t overspend. I did that and then we moved down to Arizona about 22 years ago and I realized, no one is from Arizona everybody is from a different place. It wasn’t something that I was really loving doing that. So I ended up working for a real estate attorney. Doing some odd jobs and things I thought I was going to able to help out. At the end of it, it wasn’t a best situation. He was in his up and up is what I had kind of wanted to do and I realized I’d rather just be on the happy side of this by trying and help people sell houses and I thought “well how hard could it be?”. I told my wife I want to go in real estate. She thought I was crazy. And she said OK we’ll fine we agreed that she was going to give me 90 days and if I couldn’t sell a house in 90 days, I was going to go have to get a real job. I’m unemployable and I knew I couldn’t go back to a regular 9 to 5 job because I was unemployable. I got lucky sold one and got lucky then sold another and now almost between myself, I’ve just got the most incredible team almost really close to about 5000 home sales now over the last 19 years.
Mike: Holy cow. What were you guys is dollar volume last year in 2017?
Curtis: Last year we were between 50 and 60 million. Typically, we were between 60 and 70 million. I think we’ve done 40 million plus for internal for 15 years something like that I have to go back and look. But you know it. It just kind of it just keep plugging away.
Mike: Yeah. No absolutely man. So between 50 and 60 million in 2017. How is your team structured right now? I mean with admin, buying and listing agents how are you structured?
Curtis: Pretty standard. I allow agents based on skill to be able to work with buyers or sellers if they’ve got their skill up. Most people start out working with buyers. But at the same point we made a decision a long time ago that if they can get their skill up. I’ve got some automated pieces to it so I can help people that maybe don’t have the skill as high as they want but they still want to be able to work with sellers. So that can go through the process because a lot of people I realized a long time ago that if they only work with buyers and in even though that’s way more efficient and I’m not going to dispute that it’s that if you keep the focus down they’re more efficient but they’re also becomes resentment I found. Then they also lose a lot of listening but because they don’t want to turn them over or they’ve got a friend that is thinking about selling and then sometimes they’ll leave the team because they’re like well. I’d never be able to get this. and so we do make it’s guilt. That if they get their skills up they can go through and work. On site staff, Admin. I just really brought on a recruiter. Full time graphics person, full time video person, knows her off site. I just kind of wander around and try and look busy I guess.
Mike: So how long have you been with EXP?
Curtis: I just hit six months.
Mike: Ok, six months. Where were you before EXP?
Curtis: So my journey over the last 18 years or so, I was with ReMax. I was one of the biggest producer in the area with pretty Macs and then I was really enamored with KW. When Gary Keller came out with the red book. The real estate agent not a millionaire real estate agent books just phenomenal book. I wanted to be around people because I know it’s the kind of people who were in the room with who are around people, that are building a business. I knew that he gets me strategies and it is more likely to be able to follow that if I was in that environment. I went over and again at the time, it was the most entrepreneurial company out there the opportunity to be able to buy into a market center or maybe even buy a region. And that was kind of alluring to me. I went over there and I ended up getting about 5 percent. But there was also some politics. I didn’t really love exactly to where I was headed. So I was there for a couple years and then I ended up going to what I believe the top of a mountain is. To go open my own company which I went and did and I ran my own for 12 years, it was just my team and loved it. It was fantastic. I loved Remax, I loved KW and I love having my own. And then I realized and about 12 years I was going fine everything was going good but I might. My lease was coming up and I was looking at what’s the future five years out. And I believe it’s about collaboration and about expanding your reach. I thought we’re going to need to go from 15-18 agents to 50-80 agents and I’m gonna need to get more space in. Then it becomes a little bit trickier to be able to do that. I had a friend in town that had a massive the biggest local real estate company and we ended up making a partnership to go into business together and in came over in and then a year eager to his business from 500 agents to 800 agents and I don’t really take much part in that. I was a teeny tiny part in it but it was good to be apart. I saw the EXP opportunity and I just said this is just too insane to not. Look at and guess I did not want to go. I wanted to find every reason why wouldn’t work. Because it’s sucks having to move to a company I didn’t want to do it. But when you see it you just can’t you know Jay talks about you when you say you can’t unsee it. When you really go through and you think about. What your business can be. It’s impossible to be your best in not be at an unlimited opportunity and I think. It’s the biggest opportunity and real estate. In my lifetime. I know it sounds overstated but it’s definitely the biggest opportunity in real estate right now.
Mike: Could not agree more. So are you one of those guys, I had been approached about the opportunity at EXP from some agents in our market who just unfortunately. They didn’t have influence or I just I was for whatever reason I just wasn’t prepared to listen at that time. I had heard about it. I did very minimal research. Kender reached out to me through an e-mail and so I got obviously a little more curious because Kender is who he is and he was one of my mentors from afar since especially had already been in the real estate industry since 2000 or I’ve been full time since 2014 and he was someone I looked up. Were you one of those people about it and then just you brushed it aside and you didn’t pay much attention to it or did you hear about it and then you started to dig in right away?
Curtis: I looked at her for a year and people go oh my gosh don’t you wish you had come earlier. Honestly in my situation. I’m glad everything worked out exactly how it did for a few reasons I’ll tell you so. My great friend Brent Goave, he came to me in about October of 2016. I had just barely I told you about that partnership I just barely committed maybe a week before I hadn’t moved over yet. But I committed to it now. I’m a man of my word I said this is what I’m going to do. Few months before that Brent and I we shared a room at a conference and when we’d be speaking or he’d be speaking or something like that. He is the most charismatic guy the most incredible person who I just love to be around. He calls me up and I knew that he was getting a little frustrated with kW and looking for an opportunity not necessarily looking to leave but just looking around and he says. Oh my gosh have you heard about this company EXP and I was like I have never heard anything and I feel like I’m on the cutting edge of stuff. I’m like I have no idea what you’re talking about. And he goes. Alright it goes will you please at least look at this and I said Hey you could be shown up with a wheel barrel full of gold bricks and I’m going to have to turn it down just because I’ve already committed to something I said but I’ll look at it just because I love you and I’m polite and I’ll give you my feedback on it. And we got on a call it wasn’t even it wasn’t even a video to watch. It was a call and he had someone explain the concept to me and it didn’t really resonate with me it was too early. Some like it was it was a lot about the revenue share and it was a lot about. I’ve never been in a company that you’re paid based on just strictly off growth and just a lot of things. It was I could see that it was powerful and I knew actually that Brent was going to crush it. I said Brent here’s the deal. They are so lucky to have you. You are going to explode in that company I go but it’s just not for me right now. It’s just too early and I’m not prepared to go. I’m just not in a position to do that, he loved me all the more. And he goes “hey this is cool. I’m showing it to people”. A year and a half later. I think all the people that he showed I think maybe two or three came over originally. And I think over time the eighth one finally came over. That’s pretty cool. But he showed it to me and then we just stayed in contact every month every few weeks and he went from 5000 to 10000 to 20000. At 30000, he got my attention. You’ve got to be kidding me what’s going on. It wasn’t that I was really looking at how do I stop that treadmill of agents joining my team and then going off either they don’t make it or they do make it. We help them, train them and all of a sudden after 3 years they think they’re geniuses. They no longer need you and they go off to something else and they take your leads and they take everything else and they essentially compete with you in the market. I thought this isn’t good for the team leader because you have to make a decision. You either pour into them or you hold back and I’m not going to hold back. It doesn’t feel good to me.
Does it feel good to anybody for them to have to creep around and I want to find something where I could go into business and that even when they were ready to fly, spread their wings and why I could still support them genuinely in love them and help them and have help them be the best they could. So we had that dialogue and then we looked at the turnover rates and I was coming across what it was shown was a third of the turnover rate that most of the abuse I’ve seen the ones I’ve looked at are about 38 percent turnover rate and Remax pretty similar and the ones I saw EXP was about a third of that. The ones that did leave teams in a lot of cases were staying inside people’s growth pattern. It was a win. We started getting pretty deep into that, then right when I was kind of getting deeper into it I hear did Jay’s headed to Florida to go look into this and I go oh this is great because Jay’s either you know gonna get somebody really drunk and they’re going to tell him the truth that this is a fraud or he’s going to figure out if it works. I figured he’d find enough flaws in it. I would just build to put it out of my out of my mind I have to deal with it while he’s there and while he’s flying back East, we’re blowing each other up and he’s like dude this is legit. So we really started going down that path, then I think about two months later. You know we converted over and it’s just been an absolutely incredible experience. I pinch myself feel like the luckiest person in the world the most incredible opportunity I could have ever dreamt for and I’ve been praying for this for about 20 years and it finally came.
Mike: That is awesome man. OK. So let me dive into that just a little bit because I want to talk to you a little bit about the psychology. Let’s say you’re talking to Jay on the plane. Jay is flying back from Florida and he’s telling news like dude this is legit. So at that point, what were you thinking?
Curtis: I got it and I started seeing it. I feel like I’m really bold and brave and at the same point. I was like I don’t want to do this. This is too early in my mind. I don’t want to be that guy that jumps from a company that I just barely a year before. I have my own company for 12 years. It wasn’t like I was like every six month bouncing around. At the same point I saw the offer too. I knew it was where I was eventually going to go at that point I just wasn’t sure about the timing. But I knew that when I went I was going to go big I was going to go in and I knew to do that. I know the power, I’ve watched I’ve been involved in technology companies and I knew that. A lot of the technologies like boomtown Tiger commissions and all these different ones. A lot of them were tiny fledgling things and a lot of my friends, we got involved with them and they just they took off because our industry loves celebrity agents and I hate to say it a different way but they love to see agents that are producing a really high level and they and they flock to him because we’re always looking for the solution. We’re always going well. What are the results. And I want to follow people are getting the results. And so I knew that if I was come in. I was going to go get in a fight. I was shown up with the biggest, baddest dudes could find and we were gonna go win and that we were if we’re gonna go we’re going to bring everybody here. So then I started making a couple calls to people and a couple they were kind of peeking around at it and we all kind of went through a process of looking at it and trying to go well. Where’s the holes, then after a while you start going well what if there aren’t in the holes what fits. What if it’s just the easiest and the smartest thing to do. And then it was about well fine maybe in April I’ll go and then it was you know the end of January was like well I can’t wait any longer I just have to do this.
Mike: You got it. Perfect. Then you made the decision. OK so you’ve got this team. You’re thinking about, how do I tell everybody or how do I approach everybody or had you already gone to your team members or at least your team leaders and in kind of pitched the idea. How did that work?
Curtis: No I hadn’t. I’d kind of gone through one of the things I’ve realized is you know it’s fun to talk about ideas and a lot of times I’d like to talk about what people my team but I can distract the heck out of them. Right. You bring up an idea and then they just you I guess if people on my team thought oh my gosh he’s gonna go to a different company or do like. Production would stop right. Just like everything would stop him like I can’t do that. I was going through doing my homework doing my due diligence study and watching you watching every webinar I could find 12 times when I got the millionaire real estate agent book. I read that 12 times. It before they came out with the audio. I read it on cassette tapes. I’d sit down and listen to it because I wanted to internalize it. I went deep in trying to figure out what are the solutions.
Then it was about how do I go about this? then I was talking to bring it into Jay. How do I do it and then it was kind of getting weak again, it was like well what if what if my team doesn’t come? I still need income. I’m getting older and here I don’t know if I want to rebuild in and start from scratch. And Brent Goave just said “Here’s the deal. You need to get to the point that if all those 20 people on your team walked out and said no. Good luck”. We’re not going that you would go anyways. And I go Well I’m just not there. And it took about another week or two. Around Christmas time a little after Christmas I was like you know what. I love my team I love them to death. At the end of the day this is the best thing for them. And it’s a best thing for me. They might not get it. Some will and I figured I’d end up with about three or four people that would end up coming with me. But I was like it’s the best thing for them and the best thing for me. And they just made that decision. And then when I made that decision I just she shared it with them. And. All but in all but like two people came and one. But pretty much everybody came. And it’s just been a really good experience and a good right to be able to go through it.
Mike: That’s awesome man. I appreciate you being open about that. I think that is a probably a common fear of anybody that’s running a team at this level is that you know if I make that change you know first of all is everyone going to come with me. And you know secondarily is how is that going to impact my business if they don’t. So you know kudos for you and I took a very similar approach and unfortunately when we told Keller Williams that we were moving over yet that that wasn’t a good it wasn’t a good thing for you. wasn’t it? I know they immediately sent our license back. They made it very hard and I don’t believe that is who Keller Williams is. Unfortunately, I just think it was more to do with the staff at our particular KW.
Curtis: Yeah it worked out great. You don’t think that way. One of the things I would say is that I agree. I don’t think that is the KW culture but I think that that shines a light on one of the problems and why the EXP so attractive is because as much as KW is a company. Each individual, each franchise individually run in. You’re dealing with individual politics every five miles.
Mike: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. So when you approached your team to talk about it. How did you do that? Did you go to your team leaders? Did you group everybody in a room and say hey guys who are going to be? How did that work out for you?
Curtis: I took to couple leaders that have been with me for about 12 years or so I took them to lunch and they knew I was I searching for answers right. We’re trying to figure out what’s that. You know I’m like what’s the best thing I’m always looking for what’s the best thing not like to jump but like what’s the next best opportunity. I’ve been in that business long enough and things change all the time and I laid it down. I said hey Here’s the vision. I said in the vehicle to be able to get us there it is EXP. That’s where that’s why we need to go. One of them was on board immediately the other one was a little bit more skeptical but he is like “hey, I’ll go with you no matter what”. So I thought even if I just have those two guys I’m good to go. All I can do it can build. I can build fast enough to replicate it and I’m good to go with that. I didn’t still want everybody but that’s where I was right to go because I knew that this was the best thing for them and that if I could relate that in a way then most would come. I wasn’t even sure most would come but I knew that the ones that wanted to be there. Those are the important ones. So then I went to admin, spoke to them. I had my admins and my team leaders and I’m going to present this in a way that hopefully everybody sees it. This isn’t just an opportunity for me. This is everybody has that even if they’re on a team cap, everybody has the same opportunity. Before I could not from stock in the company I couldn’t offer you a savings plan. I couldn’t confirm stuff at 20 percent off. I couldn’t able to offer those types of things to them. It is an opportunity for them to build revenue and put me a passive sources and to be able to do that and then I got everybody once I planned. We got them in a room and presented it and said “This is what we’re going to do”. I said “if you want to stay here our current place. You can do that. I’ll make it. I’ve got a sweet deal set up for you to stay. If you want to come, I got a sweet deal for you there and I’ll love you all the same. No matter what. I’m okay the way”.
Mike: So I love that man. So ultimately it just it was about them and I think it’s what I’m hearing you say is once you realized that this is a better opportunity for them it became actually easier for you to then make the decision to move to EXP. Is that what I’m hearing?
Curtis: I would even say I felt at my core. I felt obligated. I felt that even if as most people on a team just had their head down and their hustling and running and they’re so busy working and doing stuff they don’t see the opportunity. So I knew that most of them wouldn’t see this as a big opportunity for them. They would self-discover it over the first 6 or 18-24 months. They would wake up to it eventually. I thought most some aren’t going to see it. I knew at my core; it was the best thing for them. I would be mad if I was on a team and a team leader had a chance to come and give me a bigger opportunity and didn’t come and didn’t tell me about it. It might sound a little weird but I felt like a moral obligation. It was morally reprehensible to not come.
Mike: That makes perfect sense. OK. So I want to I want to rewind just a little bit and go back to something you said earlier about what really just boiled down to recruiting and retention. Right so you have these agents you teach them everything you know they come in they have success. Then they go off and sell real estate on their own and they compete against you. So talk specifically about EXP has helped you in that regard.
Curtis: It’s a great question. You know end it’s been real so in the last six months. You know again. I’ve lost a couple agents but I’ve also had a couple that I could change a toilet paper and I’ll lose 30 percent of the people my cup and my team. And that’s across the board and it was anything you could you could change the color from. Off white to cream on your logo. And you know agents are going to use as an excuse to tell us just what happened especially in Arizona. It’s probably the biggest transient real estate market in the world with 40000 local real estate agents that are constantly being told that the grass is always greener and they bounce around not making any money. So it’s going to happen and it hurts but that’s just kind of the way it’s going to go. It’s also a bigger opportunity and I had a couple of people on my team. Three in particular that came here that probably that all said they wanted to stay on my team and actually maybe back up a little bit. Even when I presented test it was a couple people that Id interviewed with EXP. They didn’t know where they talk to people about it A couple of them were investing in EXP and I’m like crap, I had no idea. I was probably going to lose them at some point to EXP anyways if I didn’t come. But when I over the last six months I’ve helped a few of them say “hey this is great I love the EXP. I love you” and in a different world they would left. They would have gone to Home Smart or a KW or Century 21 or coal banker or something. But they said “hey I want to stay here and I want to build a team”. I want to be able to do this. I want to build a present this. I said you’ve got my blessing, let me help you do that. I could continue to pour into them. It much more even more and help them grow. One in particular I think he’s got about seven or eight recruits, four or five on the books I think. But he’s got like several more that he’s bringing on another one has gone off and he’s got two or three agents recruited. And so it won just barely this last week we’re helping him transition out until it puts me in a better spot. Not that I don’t want people on my team but it puts me in a spot that I can say I’m going to give you guys everything I’ve got and when it’s time whether I agree it’s time or not it’s immaterial. It’s kind of like someone in the MBA that they might have are in college, they might have played one year. Maybe they think they’re amazing and they get to get drafted and we tried given the best advice we can. Right. And when they think it’s time for them and they want to go spread their wings they’ve got my blessing and I’ll help give them everything. Everybody in our group and our honey badger group and they get all that they get me still to help consult with them. It just brings a lot of value and actually makes them feel more confident in going on their own. More confident in building something bigger. And I feel like I can give more and help them have a bigger life.
Mike: Yeah that’s good. The thing about it is and what I started to realize too is that in really a message that I want to relay especially to other team leaders. Who are listening is the fact that. You know when you’re making a change if you like when I went back and talked to my people Curtis most of them said hey you know. I would go with you if you weren’t to real estate company I started to find that most people were loyal to me and to what I provide, the value that I provided for their benefit. And it’s funny because we don’t. The first thing we’ve been. He goes as team leaders is that so if I move companies. All these people may leave me in what we don’t realize is the fact that most of them in fact are with us because of the value that we’re already providing. And it wouldn’t matter what company you were with. It was only an added benefit that we were moving EXP and being able to provide more value than we could ever provide at any other company.
Curtis: Absolutely I agree hundred percent.
Mike: So where do you see this whole EXP thing going and we’re what we just crossed the 12000 barrier a month ago?
Curtis: I think 13000 or so now I think so and I remember. When I was really looking at this back way back like seven-eight months ago. We were talking about what the future holds for EXP and stuff like that. The idea was wow, what we think. I think at the time it was like 4500 people in the company and it was wow. If everything goes right at the end of 2018 we might hit 12000 agents. And I was like So you’re telling me we would triple in the next like 14 months or whatever it was like that’s just nuts. we’ve already hit it in June or so we hit that already. So you know now we’re looking at okay we’re probably going to get to 20000 agents. This year and then it probably double again in the next nine months after that.
Mike: Wow. So how big can it get?
Curtis: You know my gut; I think it’s going to get to 250000 in North America. Even that just boggles my mind. I truly believe that’s what’s gonna happen. I’m talking to Brent Goave. And he said something shattered my mind. When I mention him because this is so new for everybody, we’re just blazing trails, we’re just looking at it. He said “hey there’s 12 million real estate agents in the world. We just need to get two million of them”. I look at the massive revenue stream and the massive stock and everything else and how much fun this is. I’m having the most fun, I’ve ever had in 20 years. And we’re over 13000 agents. Talking about getting to 2 million. My mind can’t say it’s like how many stars are there I can’t even comprehend it. I don’t know, It’s too much.
Mike: I can hear your voice. It is always a pleasure to talk to you. I’ve got one more question here before I let you go. So yeah. What would you tell that agent that broker that team leader who’s listening to this right now, what would you tell them if they were thinking about making the move to EXP or any other company? What would you tell them? We kind of encourage them to make a move.
Curtis: I don’t know if I can talk about any of the results we’ve had or anything over the last six months. I feel like I’ve been the luckiest guy in the whole world in people joining in stuff like that but I can tell you looking at it. When you’re on the outside and you look in first of all if you can sell real estate you can sell it anywhere. You can sell it. You can sell it at Coldwell Banker, Century, you can just sell it. You can sell it anywhere. You can have your own company. That’s not going to change that much. It’s about. Who or what rooms you can get in who you can surround yourself with business associates, people to partner with you. What kind of training and types of things you can take going forward. That’s everybody is going to be able to get commissions. It’s about are you going to add the other two legs of the stool so you have a three legged stool with some stability in and having stock and most agents don’t have that and they’re not paying their taxes. So you add that in with the stock component of it and then you add in the revenue share that passive income if you’re not buying a bunch of investment properties every year. You need the revenue share and I can tell you looking on the outside it looks like fantasy numbers. I was hoping. To buy at the end of the first year to get to five thousand dollars a month because I thought “Hey, that will make my wife happy” and she’ll leave me alone and realize it’s kind of at least it works the whole time I was with KW. I got less than 500 dollars the whole time. My first revenue share check with the EXP was 1800 and you don’t win in six months. Now it’s into that 20 almost 30,000 thousand a month which is just nuts. It seems nuts looking on the outside it doesn’t seem real. Yeah but I can tell you it’s more real than anything else out there. And it’s the most fun. And you get a hang out with awesome superstars like you Mike. It is just a blast man.
Mike: That is awesome dude. Well listen it has been such an honor to have you on the show. I know you’re a busy dude. You’re setting the world on fire. I know you’re spread that EXP Joy. I appreciate you being here. It’s been in a couple minutes with us today.
Curtis: It’s been a blast. I appreciate the honor the honor to be with you.
Mike: While Curtis is one of my absolutely favorite people in real estate he’s just an incredible wealth of experience and knowledge.
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